tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post1036270934134046455..comments2022-06-27T21:55:11.636+10:00Comments on The Hymnal Blog: Please manipulate my emotionsAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14564128639942554059noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-78120049543555307842012-05-01T20:28:12.589+10:002012-05-01T20:28:12.589+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Matthias Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08053478146400457420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-88794104161282761672012-04-27T08:53:31.814+10:002012-04-27T08:53:31.814+10:00Nice Luther quote Stuart, thanks!Nice Luther quote Stuart, thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564128639942554059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-29150046963573567182012-04-26T18:30:12.824+10:002012-04-26T18:30:12.824+10:00Whilst I haven't read all the blogs, I am enjo...Whilst I haven't read all the blogs, I am enjoying them because they are truthful and the comments following are also thoughtful and just as challenging. So much better than the rest of the internets!<br /><br />Praise Jesus. :)fraxylhttp://fraxyl.bandcamp.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-68645086278698320172012-04-26T15:33:12.093+10:002012-04-26T15:33:12.093+10:00There has bee a lot of good stuff written on churc...There has bee a lot of good stuff written on church and music. There is nothing new under the sun. Here are some links that might be worth a read. http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2007/01/god-is-in-the-house/ and an article on Geoff Bullock (does any one still remember Geoff? He preceded Darlene) in the Briefing April issue 1999. Let me finish with these few encouraging words from Martin Luther, "Music is to be praised as second only to the word of God because by her all the emotions swayed ... When natural music is sharpened and polished by art, then one begins to see with amazement the great and perfect wisdom of God in this wonderful work of music ... He who does not find this an inexpressible miracle of the Lord is truly a clod and is not worthy to be considered a man!". Quoted from Cathy Sampson's CD cover Stand FirmStuart Pearsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-88534023366357482012012-04-25T18:19:22.067+10:002012-04-25T18:19:22.067+10:00Hi Col - thanks for your thoughtful comments. With...Hi Col - thanks for your thoughtful comments. With regard to teaching youth about church, I totally agree. I wouldn't ever want to suggest that an emotional high become our measure of what church is for. But I don't think denying the emotional aspect of<br />faith altogether is the solution, either. It seems like an unfortunate and reactive move which will only exacerbate the problem. As for your question about music styles, I think your hypothetical about Mighty to Save is built (if I may be so bold) on a common<br />misunderstanding of how music works. The words mean something different depending on the music to which they're sung. So to sing 'he rose and conquered the grave' without the triumphal return to the major I and emphatic repetition would be to sing a different<br />thought, or at least a different shade of feeling. A polka version would make the victory something comic, because there is a disjuncture between the emotional content of the music and the emotional content of the lyrics. SO to answer your question, the reason<br />why some songs don't move people could be various: it may be a poor song (where the lyrics don't fit the music) and I've written many of the worst offenders. Or it may be simply that the emotional content is there, but it's a different shade of emotion (some<br />good songs make people want to clap rather than raise my hands). Does this help at all?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564128639942554059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-48646119561822847692012-04-25T18:19:11.913+10:002012-04-25T18:19:11.913+10:00Hi Jason - I think we're agreeing here. 'P...Hi Jason - I think we're agreeing here. 'Provided there is no deception' is my condition for saying that there is little dangerous about the ability for music to move us. If there is deception, false motives, a lack of grounding in truth, then that is<br />another case altogether (like my example of the keyboardist using electric shocks to physically move people in an altar call).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564128639942554059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-14788342158759844632012-04-25T18:19:03.148+10:002012-04-25T18:19:03.148+10:00Just wanted to add this little question.. 98% of t...Just wanted to add this little question.. 98% of the time that I have observed Christians getting emotional in singing sessions is as a response to the type of music being played vs the actual words of the song. Yes many of the songs being played have<br />good quality content that is bible based but it's more often than not the type of music that goes with the words that gets people emotional. The songs that inspire the most people to raise hands & close their eyes with that emotional look on their faces..<br />you know the one :) are the ones that are set to slow or "trancey" type music & they are often played with repetitive choruses. Whereas songs, with equally good content & quality teaching, but aren't set to the same type of music, do not seem "inspire" anywhere<br />near the same type of emotions. The question that needs to be asked is whether people are responding to the words of the song & therefore showing their joy in what the words are saying about Jesus or is it really the music they are responding to?<br /><br /><br />I'd love to test this out by changing the music to songs like Mighty to Save or Blessed Be Your Name to polka tunes & see if the same sort of response occurs. Same words but completely different "ambiance" right? My guess is that the emotional response would<br />be totally different & possibly non existent. What is it then that is "manipulating" our emotions? Something to ponder..Colnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-87951425492641781762012-04-25T18:18:41.612+10:002012-04-25T18:18:41.612+10:00Thanks for the response Andy. I've heard many ...Thanks for the response Andy. I've heard many put forward this argument - i.e. trying to make solid bible-based churches more "engaging" in order to keep youth from leaving. I believe this also is very dangerous & for the most part disagree (sorry!). I<br />think instead leaders have the responsibility to teach youth what church is all about.. during this year's KYCK they showed a video which had a few great statements.. something along the lines of : "Church does not exist to meet my needs. We are the church<br />and we exist to meet the needs of others". We need to teach youth to see church as a place where they are to encourage & serve one another not to judge a church by how good it's music is or the emotional high they get from singing. By trying to prevent them<br />leaving by making the singing session more "engaging" seems to me to send them the message that it is ok to judge how good a church is by how engaging it is to me, rather than, am I being taught truthfully from the word & do I have the opportunity to encourage<br />& serve others.<br /><br /><br /><br />I've got some other points to make but don't want to go on a major rant! Perhaps later... :)Colnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-39502516874910589672012-04-25T18:18:17.999+10:002012-04-25T18:18:17.999+10:00"Provided there is no deception, and the emot..."Provided there is no deception, and the emotional power of the music is anchored in the truth, and we aren’t trying to substitute for the Spirit’s work in changing hearts, I can’t see the danger." I find this a strange sentence. If we accept that music<br />has a non rational effect on our soul, then it seems to me that the danger of music is deception. Music is dangerous because it can be used to cause people to love that which we ought to hate, or to detest that which we ought to rejoice in. It seems to me<br />that your saying that if music is not dangerous, then its not dangerous. Do you think there are dangers of 'emotional manipulation' in music? Particularly as it can manipulate emotions to cause people to be happy about things about which we should lament?<br />And, if yes, how does that effect our attitude towards 'emotionally manipulative' music?Jason Marriottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-84245797256980521742012-04-25T18:17:37.788+10:002012-04-25T18:17:37.788+10:00I have always believed that when we are experienci...I have always believed that when we are experiencing a strong emotion/s, we need to be very careful what music we choose to put on. If we are angry it does not serve our spirit to put on a song with anger-inducing lyrics or melodies and if we are depressed<br />we should avoid sombre lyrics/melodies that push us deeper into depression etc. Music is powerful and we need to take responsibility for what we allow ourselves to hear. The people who write and play the music also have a great responsibility as it touches<br />the soul in a way that words on their own can't. However, I can't think of a situation when we shouldn't listen to music that honours God, praises him and challenges us to draw nearer to him. God used David's music to manipulate Saul. God created music and<br />created us to respond on a deep level to it. If it points to God and draws us to a place of deeper communion with his Spirit, if only for a moment, then manipulate me too!Tiffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-23142909135140996672012-04-25T18:16:47.967+10:002012-04-25T18:16:47.967+10:00Thanks for your comments paolo, Steph, Ryan, Col a...Thanks for your comments paolo, Steph, Ryan, Col and Sam. I wonder though, Col, whether the experience of losing kids from our churches to more exciting but less solid teaching tells us we need to make our gatherings more emotionally switched on, not less?<br />(Why are they leaving, if not to meet a legitimate yearning to engage as whole humans with God which in our middle class platonism we've ruled off limits?) I should add though, that I use the word 'manipulate' a little bit provocatively - there is something<br />horrible about real emotional manipulation (which is deceptive, truthless and from an attitude of using people not caring for people), but when most people talk about 'emotional manipulation' they're really just talking about 'engaging emotions', and I don't<br />think there's anything wrong with that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564128639942554059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-69712985940122108332012-04-25T18:16:31.639+10:002012-04-25T18:16:31.639+10:00I think if what Jesus had done doesn't effect ...I think if what Jesus had done doesn't effect you emotionally then you don't understand it intellectually. Also doesn't singing make you release endorphins that make you actually happier. So singing will naturally make us, happy. So to try and separate<br />the two you'd have to just write a sermon and we could all say it together. I wish I would be intentionally emotionally engaged from the singing and the sermon.Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-14322860933311654582012-04-25T18:16:00.806+10:002012-04-25T18:16:00.806+10:00I agree with Sam C & I also want to add this.....I agree with Sam C & I also want to add this.. Whilst I love your music & ministry GH, I have to say that this can be really dangerous when it comes to youth (& probably young Christians no matter what physical age).. whilst I don't disagree with the positive<br />effects of music for a mature Christian (i.e. someone who understands the balance of studying the Word as well as the place of music/singing in a Christian's life) I've seen too many youth getting dependent on the emotional high they get from "worship sessions"<br />& equating this with their way of getting "close to Jesus". I've seen too many kids turn their backs on solid bible-based churches to go to other churches that aren't particularly well grounded in Scriptures because their singing sessions were "so much more<br />alive" (or words to that effect) & obviously the consequences of this is that the youth don't grow past "newborn babies" & they aren't "craving for pure spiritual milk" so that they can grow in their salvation.. I love your music GH because your songs are<br />grounded in scriptures but I do believe that we need to be very careful .. in fact I'd go so far as to say that we should not do any sort of manipulation when it comes to youth & new Christians.Colnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-16651475838608981342012-04-25T18:12:47.551+10:002012-04-25T18:12:47.551+10:00I think the key thing is the link between emotions...I think the key thing is the link between emotions and truth. Emotional manipulation is just that - underhanded, dodgy, sneaky, manipulation. I love music. But I know that it can generate powerful emotions in me, whether or not I'm listening to the words.<br />Where all of this starts to go wrong is when the emphasis in our gatherings becomes *generating emotion*. *Especially* in our corporate gatherings. A church may foster a culture where people are encouraged to respond instantly to the emotions of the preacher<br />and music leaders without considering the content of what they're saying/singing. They are attempting to generate emotion at the expense of, or in place of, truth. The sermon/singing was "good" if it was "emotional" and people responded "powerfully" in the<br />moment. You see? I don't want a song leader trying to command me to feel emotional. Or do an elaborate show to generate "mood" and "emotion". I want them to point me to Jesus in the words of the song. Help me sing meaningful and joyful so that my emotion is<br />driven by my conviction of the truth in what I'm singing. Minor rant also :)Sam Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-51431633021793187392012-04-25T18:12:00.211+10:002012-04-25T18:12:00.211+10:00Totally agreed. I certainly know that my emotions ...Totally agreed. I certainly know that my emotions are going to be manipulated by whether or not I've exercised recently, or by the subversive messages that my marks feed me about my worth, so I think it's legit to fight back against unkind manipulators<br />with one that reminds your heart of what is true and real. Not as the substance or even the fuel of my faith. But as a helpful aid! When I was in high school, having recognised that music had a significant influence over the way I felt, I went through a phase<br />where pretty much the only music I'd listen to was Christian music. I figured that if I was going to be affected by music, I wanted to be affected by something that was anchored in truth. Whilst that phase didn't endure, I look back on that time with thankfulness<br />to God for the way He used music as a tool to keep me abiding in Jesus. And I think that the way it did that was not just through keeping my eyes fixed on Jesus, through the lyrics, but keeping my heart transfixed by Him by enabling me to feel what I knew<br />to be true in seasons of dryness. I am so thankful for the gift of music BECAUSE it mobilises my emotions, orienting them in a direction that is worthy of all my affections and infinitely more. End rant. What do others think?Stephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-654684797001402014.post-26724682635340462862012-04-25T18:10:26.265+10:002012-04-25T18:10:26.265+10:00great thoughts. Very relevant :)great thoughts. Very relevant :)paolonoreply@blogger.com